As leaders, how do we prevent ourselves from burning out? It’s important that we don’t just live for the sake of surviving. We have to go beyond thriving. You have to be flourishing. You don’t want to be in your 40s and 50s, climbing and getting on top of the ladder, only to realize you have climbed the wrong ladder.
In today’s discussion, Matthew Lesser joins Adam to talk about dealing with burnout, intentional living, and creating a culture where people flourish.
Matthew Lesser is the founder and CEO of Uniquely Normal, which helps organizations build flourishing cultures by building individuals that flourish. Matt is a bestselling author of the recently released book UnSatisfied: When Less Is More. Matt has been training leaders, teams, and boards in over 40 countries over the past 20 years.
Here are some power takeaways from today’s conversation:
- Matthew’s experience with depression
- The concept of a personal board of directors
- How to deal with burnout
- Flourishing versus thriving
- The definition of intentional living
- How leaders can create a culture that allows people to flourish
[12:20] Your Personal Board of Directors
Find four or five people that you know love you and care about you enough that they will speak the truth to you even when it hurts – because that’s the time you need to hear it the most. The primary purpose is threefold: encouragement, challenge, and accountability. Therefore, the right type of community is a powerful tool.
[22:50] Steps to Take When You’re on the Brink of Burnout
Write your story. It’s difficult to know where you want to go until you know both where you are now and where you’ve been. When we get into a funk, it’s so easy to just focus on the negative. But when we’re able to look at our story and see both the struggles and successes, we begin to see the big picture.
Then ask yourself these four questions:
- Passion – What are you passionate about?
- Skills – What are you gifted and skilled at doing?
- Value – How do you contribute value to others – and that’s affirmed by others?
- Calling – What do you feel called to do?
In the intersection of those four is the place where you can begin to intentionally live a flourishing life, or at least you’re on the journey toward a flourishing life.
[29:23] Flourishing vs. Thriving
Flourishing is all about giving back. It’s thinking beyond just here and now and today, and it’s beyond accumulation. Thriving is more accumulation-based in terms of wealth, power, position, etc. Whereas flourishing is a “flowing out of.” You realize that life is so much bigger than you and that you have a purpose and meaning, beyond just yourself.
[35:33] Creating a Culture Where People Will Flourish
When people flourish, organizations flourish. But when we treat people as just “hired help” and we treat them like they’re “less than” then what we’re going to get from them is also “less than.” Rather, think of people in terms of how you can help them flourish.
flourishing is all about giving back it’s growing out it’s bigger than me it’s bigger than a person it’sunderstanding you know what I have been invested in I’m going to invest back it’s about Legacy it’s Thinking Beyondjust here and now and today and it’s it’s beyond accumulation uh thriving ismore accumulation based of of wealth power whatever position title whereasflourishing is a is a flowing out of and um and and so that’s the majordifference for me is that when you start to realize you know what life is bigger than me and I I live um I need to live alife that is dedicated to purpose and meaning Beyond me um that’s where you begin to think morealong the flourishing lines and instead of just thriving hello everyone and welcome to the flowover fear podcast where it is our mission to help you to rise above fear and realize your ultimate potential inleadership and life I’m your host Adam Hill and it is my goal to share with youthe human side of high performance my guests share their experience with fearanxiety struggle Challenge and most importantly despite all of it how theyRose above it to achieve incredible results so if you’re ready to rise uplet’s get started welcome to flowover fear everyone thanks for joining us Ihave a great guest today his name is Matt lesser and he is the founder andCEO of uniquely normal uh uniquely uniquely normal exists easy for me tosay to help organizations build flourishing cultures by building individuals that flourish Matt is a bestselling off author of the book unsatisfied which was released just a few months ago and is selling very wellwhen less is more and so the book is called unsatisfied when less is more anduh his second book is expected to release in the fall and winter of 2023so expect that to be coming out Matt has in the had the honor of training leadersteams and Boards in over 40 countries over the past 20 years and he has servedas an executive of many business as well we’re going to get into a lot of this conversation it’s going to be a a greatconversation on how to rise above fear and lead in the best way Matt’s greatesttreasures are his faith his family and his friends he resides in NortheastIndiana with his family and he joins us today thank you Matt for joining us and great to have you here thank you Adamthank you for having me great to be here absolutely so I want to kind of dive in a little bit with with your historybecause you know you’ve written a book you you’re training leaders and you have uh you have a pretty amazing story anamazing background having served as a leader yourself how did you get into the leadership that you’re in and kind ofget into that idea of training leaders yeah that’s a that’s a great question Adam and um to to get to get there Ineed to rewind uh really back to the start of my career if you will and andthat is um after after I graduated from college I went to college um I was one of those those weird kids that when Iwent to college I knew exactly what I wanted to study and going in the door and I didn’t deviate so it didn’t changemy major didn’t change my minors and uh and so on I wanted to study business and uh so I graduated from business and Iwent into the family business which is something that um as I was when I went to into collegeI thought that’s what I wanted to do but by the time I graduated I didn’t want to do but yet that’s where I wound up soneeded a job and hey there was a job so I took it um a year into that I literally went tomy my dad and and said dad this isn’t working and one of us needs to go andit’s probably not going to be uh you because you own the stocks so I’m going to leave and go to grad school andfigure figure this thing called life out and uh never forget that conversation and my dad said sit down and my dad bigguy played football in college and so I sat down and he said he said actually he says I I am leaving and he did and onthe way out the door he literally just signed the business over to me and he left and uh and and I took overand so it was it was one of those things that academics has always come easy tome and so therefore I thought that this thing called business would as well I mean I studied it in college and so heywhy not and boy um I’ve often said now that I went to college to get my degree and went intobusiness to get my education and it’s so true and so uh within the first three months I uncovered uh justum Mountain after Mountain after mountain of issues uh there was uh insurmountable trade debt that hadhappened and I was not aware of that there was uh polluted properties we were in the wholesale oil industry and andthe big one was is that uh if you don’t pay withholding tax for a period of time the the IRS uh they don’t like that andso um so I had all these come down to me at the same time and I spiraled into a deep depressionand I didn’t know any of the terminology at the time began experiencing panic attacks not sleepingum and finally to the point that um about six months into my uh my myadventure of being the president of a company uh I I wasn’t getting out of bedand about two months after that um I had decided that uh life wasn’tworth living and um and interestingly and I I won’t tell the full story because it’ll taketoo long but the day that I actually decided that life was over for me um it was just one literally one Miracleafter another and I wound up sitting in front of uh who wound up becoming mymentor and then later on my boss believe it or not um someone that had gone through something very similar a decade prior towhat I went through and uh spent a half a day with him and literally just kind of vomited all over his desk notliterally but you know figuratively and um at the end of that time uh this guy’sUber successful uh wealthy I mean he could have written and stroked a check for literally pocket change that would have fixed all my problems and and hedidn’t and I’m grateful he didn’t and uh but at the end of that time he said I will walk with you through thisand and that was all I needed that was a thread of hope that I needed to liveanother day and then another day and then a week and then a month and then a year and then yearsum and so I was removed from the business for uh about six months uh was got helpum and uh and while I was out then he actually did send in a team of people to see what we had I had hired my mom andso he worked with her and be able to restart the business and then from there it grew and it flourished for about 10years and then it grew to the point that I had a big decision to make on if I wasgoing to leverage everything literally and try to go for the next level um or sell to one of my competitors whoI knew would take care of our employees and that was ultimately the decision we made to do and so so did that and thenwent into private equity for uh 12 years worked for my my friend My Mentor the the man who walked with me through thatdark period and uh and that’s where um so I was I was in the trenchesobviously in my own business and then um in in when I was in private Equity then for for about seven yearsum I literally traveled the world looking for business opportunities to invest into so we were in our kind ofour sweet spot was investing in owner operator businesses that had grownum you know anywhere from let’s say five million to 25 million in top line revenue and so every day I was talkingwith leaders and Leadership teams and and I began to uh I began to see uh apattern it was a story that turned into a pattern and the pattern was this Adam it wasum these these these men and women had had spent most of their of their livesclimbing either you know climbing the proverbial corporate ladder or you know sacrificing doing whatever it takes tobuild their business into um into a point where they wereconsidered successful I mean if you looked at their lives you’d say man they’re thriving they’re successful theyhave discretionary income they have you know they have the lake house they have the extra car they have the boat they have you know whatever whatever they cantake whatever vacation they want and uh in in and by society’s definition theywere living in enviable life right and yet right talk with themone-on-one I got a very different story oftentimes with tears and oftentimesstories filled with regret of saying things like this is it I have worked all this andI’ve sacrificed oftentimes it was I sacrificed my marriage sacrificed my kids sacrificed you know whatever itmight be and um for what and and literally it was this is it and so they became sodisillusioned that they either didn’t want to be in business anymore and so that’s where you know I had theopportunity then obviously being in private Equity to invest in the business buy the business whatever um and so that they could try to thenmake up for all that lost time and at least that’s the perception anyway and soum that’s what again that happened many different it happened many times ondifferent continents different countries so it wasn’t just a U.S thing um or just a European thing which U.Sand European culture are very similar um but I just saw this you know in Africa as well and so it’s like okay sowhat what is that and what can be done differently and andit got to the point too that I was in a similar situation in my own life you know I was climbing the corporate ladderat this at this private Equity Firm and but I was starting to ask those same questions like wait a minute I don’t want to get into my late 40s 50s andclimb the ladder get to the top and say this is it or man I climbed the wrongladder right and so I began to write about it and that’s how really that’show the book unsatisfied was birth at least in my mind so is that helpfulgotcha absolutely yes so the so the book that you’ve written uh the unsatisfiedwhich was recently released is all about that story of kind of how you came up into you know from that and that’s therethere’s a lot of fascinating things in here and a lot I can relate to personally because you kind of took youtook over an oil company or a petroleum business you know a year aftergraduating college as so it kind of got thrown into the fire right after that and then and then that led to somedepression I took over the family business which we’re a chemical company so I can relate to a lot of that we havethe same similar kind of background with the uh panic attacks anxietyum fortunately for for me I guess I I’d experienced that earlier and and spent enough time in the family business thatwhen I became the leader in that role it had it had um uh you know I’d been withthe company long enough so I knew what was going on I knew that there were changes that needed to be made but that’s a difficult thing that’s a hardthing to get thrown into um it sounds like you know the idea ofhaving a mentor or somebody that can help you through that or walk with you through it as you say was a reallyhelpful piece to that to kind of get you out of it and onto the other side isthat does that is that accurate oh my um yeah and I uh I I could not Iwouldn’t be who I am today without the the men that have invested into me literally since I was a teenager andum and I I cannot I cannot I can’t emphasize that enough I mean even to the point that today when Istarted my business um about a year and a half ago a little over a year and a half ago now um I had a uh a wise Mentor he’s a wiseguy I mean he’s 82 he’s one of my favorite people in the world 82 years old absolutely no filter whatsoever Ilove that about him and uh he came to we served on a board together that’s how we met and so he came to me when he foundout that I was going to start my business and he said uh he said Matthew don’t do it aloneand I said what so what do you mean and he said I said I can’t afford to I said I’m starting up man I can’t afford tohire anybody and uh he said put together a personal board of directorsand I just said what’s that and he said find four or five people that you know love you and care about you and careabout you enough that they will speak truth to you even when it hurtsum because that’s the time you need to hear it the most and so I said okay I’ll do it and you’re a member number oneright and and he agreed um and uh and so we meet quarterly youknow we meet we meet every quarter just like a regular board meeting half a day and it’s it’s uh three men that love merespect me and care about me enough to have the hard conversations and and my wife and uh and so these four peopleum I just I value them I respect them I love them dearly and I know they do the same with me and and Adam I wouldn’t beable to do what I’m doing right now without them in fact I went through a real lull uh after the release of mybook and it was literally at the point of oh crap now what you know the book justcame out what am I doing now and I was really ready just to pitch it and say you know what and I literally went to myboard meeting uh in in late October and said um I was just in a funk and justsaid you know what hey nice ride but it’s over I’m just gonna get a job and I’m I’m done with thisand to a person they said no you’re not and uh and they literally rewound and Isaid where did we start where are we now and where are we going it’s like nowe’re sorry we’re not letting you quit we care about you too much and and that was the uh honestly that was one of thecatalytic moments that it’s like okay then I guess I better start writing again because I already had an idea for the next book so anyway sorry I’mrambling but sure no not not at all please rate your ramble on because I I the concept of the the personal board ofdirectors I really like that idea and I want to kind of dive into that a little bit more because it now is that personalBoard of Directors for you is is that specific to issues that just you’refacing or is it more of a mastermind where you’re you’re working with each other’s issues or are you or are yousolely focused on just your life and then you might serve on their board soto speak uh that’s a great question they don’t um so two of the uh two of the four are umthey’re re they’re retired from a day-to-day job they do some Consulting work and the third is the CEO of alarger company um so they don’t have personal boards per seum but I will say that at these meetings there is some there is definitely an error of uh iron sharpening iron youknow Proverbs 27 17. and so it’s not like it’s the match show um you know the primary purpose is to umis is for I I was threefold encouragement um Challenge and accountability and sothose are the three major uh the three major words I would say that we focus on and when we get togetherum the updates that I provide them then in between board meetings I focus on three areas and and the first is is uhFaith second is family and then third is the business and um and I’m I’m an open book I meanand some sometimes these board meetings we talk about the business sometimes we talk about the book sometimes we talkabout personal Journey um sometimes all three but every board being is unique and even though you knowI have a prepared agenda um we rarely follow it to a T and so and I and I love that about this you knowit’s just been sure um it’s been an amazing experience to have this and I I cannot recommend thishighly enough I mean it’s just that I literally would not be sitting here I don’t think uh without these four peopleuh that have been prodding me encouraging me kicking me in the pants occasionally solike I can’t uh speak more highly do it myself just because the power of community to get us not only out of ourown funks but to but to roll ideas off of to to as you say iron sharpening ironit’s such a powerful tool Community the right type of community is such apowerful tool and so it helped you I mean at least getting that getting that Mentor getting that personal board ofdirectors helped you to kind of get out of that funk learn the processes was there anything else that kind of helpedshift you out of that depression I mean there’s a lot of overwhelm when all of that stuff is hitting you at once youknow we’ve just taken over a business a lot of this stuff is is hitting you how what else what other tools did you havethat helped you get out of that that funk of depression uh wow it was umso I would say there were probably two or three major um major things that that happened onewas um the counselor that I was assigned to um and uh and Lily was assigned to andso never I didn’t know this guy from from the man on the moon and uh he woundup walking with me for over six years and actually it was just me me and my wife um when this all happened I shouldhave mentioned my wife and I had only been married for a year so I mean it was a uh wow so it rocked our marriage aswell as you can imagine and so um so I I look back on this now we bothdo and look back on this on that time period and say you know really it was there’s a whole lot of God’s grace andmercy in that because I knew who I was at that time and I knewum my flaws and I I had some fatal flaws and and those flaws most likely wouldhave train wrecked my marriage now I can’t say that for sure um but I’m very grateful that I wentthrough that I mean I don’t want to repeat it necessarily but I would if that’s what it takes so the counselor isone second was um I was medicated I was medicated for um uh the better part of two years andquite heavily at first because my brain chemicals were so out of whack um you know it’s I learned a lot aboutbrain chemistry during that period that time period about how you know if you’re under that kind of stress that kind ofpressure you know your brain is constantly firing and you’re basically exhausting the the neuronsand that’s part of what causes the depression is that you’re constantly flooding your body with with adrenaline and norepinephrine and soum and so I learned a lot about that and so the meds helped me regain some kind of balance againand then then the third was um the third was having a uh um uh having mentors andit was more than one but one primary that walked with me and I’ve often said that um it was during the years thatfollowed that that I had um some amazing uh men in particular that invested in meand helped me to learn how to be you know I was a very good student I didn’t know I I didn’t need to be taught that Ineeded to learn though how to be how to be a husband how to be a uh eventually afather how to be a business owner um how to be a man of integrity really aman of character because I I didn’t know really any what that meant so is that helpful yeah absolutely yeah you I I’mreally glad you’re telling this story because a lot of people especially leaders need to hear this and and as yousaid a little bit earlier you know you ran into a lot of leaders that that for all intents and purposes everything onthe outside looks like it’s going so well but internally there’s a lot of a lot of struggle a lot of challenge a lotof you know depression sadness a lot of is this it you know and and and thoseare questions we deal with at every level um it’s not always you know roses andunicorns for for us so things like therapy that you’re getting medication Imean that we we I mean I know that as Leaders we want to we want our egos toget the best of us a lot of times and we don’t want to think that we need that but but the story of but there’s oftentimes in leadership that we’re going to feel hopeless we’re going to feel like nothing’s working we’re going to feellike there’s no way out and it’s through those times where we need to take care of ourselves we need the community weneed the therapy we need the you know medication we need the mentors in those times so I’m very glad you’re tellingthe story and you’re doing what you’re doing because it’s it’s uh it’s it’s it’s saving lives I mean that thatreally comes down to saving businesses um and so you you so you wrote a book uhyou know about a lot of this and um and and so it kind of around that unsatisfied uhuh topic you know a lot of these leaders have that burnout that they that they startto feel um what are what are some of the tools and solutionsyou might offer to somebody who’s starting to feel that burnout um that’s a yeah great uh great questionagain Adam um what uh so the way that I I wrote the book um I didn’t write thisthis is not a self-help book I despise self-help books right this is a book that tells tells a story a lot of it isis um so it’s my story and then there’s a model in there that I worked on for the course about five years it’s calledthe flourishing life model and then the third part of the book is dedicated all to integration and applicationum I I didn’t want the readers to walk away and say okay nice story nice model wonderful great put it on the Shelfthere’s just dust down the collects on it I wanted to be able to do something with it so I want them My Hope Is by thetime they get to part three they say great now what do I do well wonderful that’s why part three is written and soI would say that people that are on the verge of of burnout or their getting to ask the questions you know now what youknow or is this it um you know the first thing that I encourage people to do isWrite Your Story don’t just tell it if you don’t want to write it fine tell it to someone or speak it into them into arecording device but then have somebody transcribe it write your story and Idon’t mean the cliffs notes version I mean your full-on story that with all the details the nitty-gritty uh the goodand the bad the challenging and the victories um and and get that down and and so thereason why and I get this you know why is that important it’s important to write it because it’s difficult to knowwhere you want to go until you’ve know both where you are now and where you’ve been and I think that so is so easy to forgetwhere we’ve been you know both the the challenges but also the victories youknow this this this life is full of both and it’s easy when we get into a funk tojust focus on the negative focus on the bad right and and then we we look at ourstory you know we begin to see oh wait a minute you know yeah my life has some challenges but my life also has somepretty cool aspects to it and it helps provide hope for okay what’s nextum the next thing that I recommend for for people is and I talk about this in the book as well is you know answer fourquestions you know what are you passionate about what are you gifted and skilled at doingI mean really good at doing like you can do it in your sleep kind of a thing um and then back back to passion passionyou know what what keeps you up at night in a good way that you just you think about it all the time you dream about it and those kinds of things the thirdquestion is how do you contribute value to others and that’s affirmed by othershow do others say you contribute value to them and the fourth one is your calling you know what do you feel calledto do what is what is your your dream what is that thing that is constantlynagging at you that you just can’t get away from in in the intersection of those four is is a place where you canbegin to intentionally live a flourishing life or at least you’re on the journey toward a flourishing lifeand so um but it really starts with you know you have to know yourself so that’s why story is so important and then Igive some other other things in the in the in part three of take some assessments you get really get to knowyourself um ask the questions you know what is your why you know why are you here what’s your purpose and then one of myfavorite exercises is to think about your legacy so fast forward to the end of your life and look back on ithopefully it’s a long lived well good life and and you’re looking back on it and you imagine yourself it’s kind ofmorbid but hey it works imagine yourself sitting in your own funeral what are the three things you most want said aboutyou and whenever I’ve done this exercise I never hear I wish I had more zeros inmy bank account you know I wish I had a bigger business or I wish I had more cars or it’s usually things like I wishI spent more time with my family you know I wish I had taken that vacation I promised I wish I had you know those kinds of things I love that exercise toothat the one of looking back on your of looking forward and looking back on your life because it it’s something thingthat I’ve done pretty frequently and I I recall uh once watching uh I think JimmyCarter had a health scare many years ago and regardless of what anybody thinks about the politics of it you know justthinking Jimmy Carter is a pretty you know he’s in his 90s I believe but he had a health scare where he was prettyclose to death at one point and um and having come back from it he was sitting in an interview chair and somebody askedhim well what were you thinking at that time and I remember seeing his face just light up and he smiled and who smileswhen they think of themselves about to die and he and he and he had this smile on his face and he said I thought of myfamily I thought of the things that I had done I thought of you know travelingI thought of you know doing all of this stuff you know for building homes and he was just naming off all these things andsmiling and I thought to myself that’s it that’s the secret to life that’s what you want to achieve is you want to lookback on that life at that moment and and so that’s such a powerful tool and Ialso love the idea of writing your story because you know um just the idea of of of of rememberingthose points in time as you say that that you might have forgotten especially when they get lost in all of the day-to-day that you know you tend to youknow feel all the negative I I don’t know if you’re planning to do an audio book or if you have an audiobook out Iactually read my audiobook recently over the course of two days and man that was powerful to actually read the story overtwo days was just like wow um it was an emotional roller coaster but but a pretty amazing experience soto to that end those are some great tools to to remember thatum now you mentioned the flourishing part because that’s the first time I’ve really heard that word used in this context and I and I I’m interested inthat because I hear people talk about you know live a life where you’re thriving or that sort of thing what isthe difference that you see in in flourishing versus say thriving you know and that was the keydifferentiator um in when I was doing the research for uh for the book because I got tothriving pretty easily and and because the people that I was working with day-to-day they were thrivingum you know especially when you look up the definition even they were thriving you know they but but the differencebetween the two um in fact the the original working title of the book was beyond thriving because I kept askingwhat is beyond thriving these the people that I’m seeing they are thriving but they’re not satisfied so what’s nextwhat’s beyond that but when I did some test marketing nobody got it so I didn’t go with thatum so um so but I kept asking the question what is beyond thriving and then I had this conversation with afriend of mine and he brought the word flourishing and he was talking about it in the context that we often see andthat’s what does it take to get to humans humans to flourish human flourishing and that usually means youknow basic sustenance food shelter clothing those kinds of things but theword captured me and so I began doing research on the word itself and I wasjust in I was just basically captured by it and it’s like you know what flourishing also meansum it means uh growth Beyond uh a person or I can’t remember exactly how it’sworded but it’s like okay that’s it flourishing is all about giving back it’s growing out it’s bigger than meit’s bigger than a person it’s understanding you know what I have been invested in I’m going to invest backit’s about Legacy it’s Thinking Beyond just here and now and today and it’sit’s beyond accumulation oh uh thriving is more accumulation based of of wealthpower whatever position title whereas flourishing is a is a flowing out of andum and and so that’s the major difference for me is that when you start to realize you know what life is bigger than me and I I live um I need to live alife that is dedicated to purpose and meaning Beyond me um that’s where you begin to think morealong the flourishing lines and instead of just thriving yeah it was at a big switch for you forfrom going to the point where you are working in businesses and and you knowhelping enter internally your family businesses succeed but then also now you’re you’re helping other leaders andorganizations succeed is that was that a big switch for you on that oh yeah yeah this yeah it’s and I’m on the journeyright I’m not I’m not saying that I’m there all the way because you know I have my days where you know as I said before I have days where I’m like isthis is this really worth it and the answer I know is yes um but you know I have those emotionalmoments where it’s like okay this is really hard but it’s worth it and I don’t want to go back to um the way itused to be that way it stopped working for me it just stopped working and um I didn’t like who I was quite franklyum when I was in that place and so so I’m committed to this I mean I I uh you know I I use this example in the bookand I love the story of Cortez 1519 burn the ships you know about a year and ahalf ago man I I burned those ships so I’m all in and uh you know sink or swimI’m all in so we’re making it we’re making it work yeah yeah well you could tell in that you’re lit up about thisand and that you’re passionate about it and you’ve got a you’ve got a powerful story and you know not only that but thepowerful experience of of going through the turmoil and then coming out the other side stronger and knowing that youhad a community and you’re becoming that community and that’s the important piece um you know and I think I think leadersneed to hear that too is that you know a lot of times getting out of that crucible that we’re working in orwhatever whatever the challenge is a lot of times it’s it’s it’s starting to workwith other people not just for your own benefit but for other people’s benefit you know to help them succeed as welland that’s going to help you um so again it gets back to that idea of communityum and uh and that to me sounds like intentional living which is something you talk about and and so what is whatis that intention living mean to you it really means not living life byaccident or letting life just happen you know I really believe I think one of the things that I kept running into againwhen I would work with these these leaders all over the world is is umthey get to a point of saying I’m not even sure how I got here you know and and that’s where some of that regret isand they were making decisions in the moment that they thought were the right decision and as far as it was forbuilding their businesses or whatever it was but when they they never step back fromit to say okay is this really what I want to be doing and so I think just the the differenceis intentional living is stepping back and saying okay what is the trajectory of my life what are the decisions I’mmaking now and are these the decisions that align with who I say I am and saywho I want to be because if it isn’t then I need to make some changes nowyeah so I I um I like that definition because not not living by accidentthat’s that’s hugely important and I think even not just as individuals but even as organizations I know you workwith organizations you worked in organizations organizations feel a lot of the same emotions as as just humanbeings too right so they’ll they’ll experience that fear they’ll experience that thatum that uncertainty or um you know the decisions that are made might might lead them into unintentionalliving yeah um and so even organizations need to focus on how they as you sayflourish how do organizations um do that how do they create the cultures that would allow them toflourish well now you’re leading this is what I’m actually writing about right now so um the book I’m working on right now uhinterestingly enough this is the book that I actually wanted to write the first time um but it’s not what popped out andthere’s many reasons why um and actually I’m glad it didn’t because uh what I wrote already in thecoaching and the training I got while writing that was just phenomenal and it’s helping me uh write this next onebut this next one is dedicated to building flourishing organizations andit’s by building flourishing team members um you know as you just mentioned organizations are emotional becausepeople are emotional well organizations are people and and people are part of organizations and I think thatorganizations forget that sometimes and so you know whenever I’m working with leaders or leadership teams I I can’ttell you I I almost have a visceral reaction whenever I see FTE because it’s like okay those ftes are people allright those people represent lives those lives represent families those families represent more people and and I thinkthat we forget that sometimes and we try to dehumanize it because somehow I think it makes it easier when we do very hardthings like lay somebody off or fire somebody or whatever and I get that but it doesn’t change the fact that we haveresponsibilities as leaders and I think that’s a great responsibility I think leadership is a wonderful responsibilitybut it’s also a tremendous burden and so and I think that we have a responsibility to do it well and thatmeans that we do the best we can to work with our team members those people thatwork with us and for us to help them become flourishing so because whenpeople flourish organizations flourish but when we treat people like they’re not people like they’re just a you knowlike just hired help or whatever words you want to put around that and and and we treat them like they’re less thanthen we get less than right and so I um I’m doing the best I can with peoplethat I can influence and have an influence with to redo your thinking onthat and think about your people in terms of how can I help my people flourish because when they flourish theorganization will flourish so that’s yeah where I’m focused right now well that’s great I’m looking forward tothat coming out how do you how do you focus um so as a leader how do you how do youfind that balance though of really looking at The Human Side of of of thebusiness uh and and you know making sure you’re holding people accountable becausethat’s that’s that that’s always a challenge for some leaders is is maybe not going too far towards the end of yeah you know maybe taking care of theof the people so to speak yeah and um I you’re right and I think that notholding people accountable is uh is not kind because when when somebody is notproducing like they should be producing then I think that we have to look at one of it’s one of four reasons one of fivereasons so either they’re not properly trained they don’t have the proper tools or resources they need to do the jobthey don’t have the skills to do the job or they don’t have the desire or the willingness to do the job the firstthree are on the organization right so they need to make sure they’re properly trained they have the tools they need and that they um that they hire peoplewith the proper skills or they they give them the skills they need but if somebody doesn’t have the desire or theum or the the desire or the uh whatever I just said sorry um the ability yeah yeah whatever theydon’t have the desire to do the job I can’t do much with that and so it’s not fair and it’s not kind if I don’t holdthat person accountable for the job that they do and if they’re not getting the results that that is necessary for thatrole then again it’s not kind if I don’t address that and and help them eitherbecome successful in their role find a different role where they can be successful or allow them to succeed at adifferent organization that’s all kind and you can do that in a kind waythat’s a great point and I I love that perspective because um you know I think a lot of uh manyleaders May ignore that idea of holding people accountable because they don’t want to rock the boat they don’t want to hurt somebody’s feelings but in realitythey’re just protecting themselves and I’m guilty of this too you know it’s it’s a scary thing to have to confrontsomeone with the realities of of the business or hold them accountable but you’re also right it’s the kind thingand that kindness oftentimes takes courage so that’s that’s that’s huge I Ithink that’s important and I think many times Adam that okay um you know if people are not being successful in theirin their role you know most people know it and and they’re doing the best they can to to kind of fake it till they makeit but many times they just don’t make it yeah but yet they’re they’re scared they don’t want to lose their job and uhthey don’t want to admit it because they’ll lose their job so um right so having the conversation frommy perspective is the kind thing to do and yeah it’s the hard thing to do but I think it’s the kind thing to doyeah that’s a that’s a great point I’m looking forward to that next book that’s coming out what’s it what’s it called ordo you have a name for it yet um I have a working title uh I don’t know where it’s gonna wind up yet but I’m taking the same un theme so rightnow it’s called unengaged Uh building engaged in flourishing organizationsor teams I’m not sure okay and that’s coming out next yearyes yes that’s the plan yeah great um I’m about three quarters of the way through the manuscript right now and uhhopefully finish that up and then get into the publishing process here hopefully q1nice excellent and um so I want to I want to kind of take a step back uh toas we kind of close out here I wanted to ask you when you um when you think of that time when youwere first starting out because I was I’m picturing you as you’re just getting married because it sounds like you weregetting married and you were starting this position as president of of your family business at the same time it sounds like a very very exciting timefor you um and I I would love to know that if if with all of your experience that you’vehad thus far in your life if you can go back and tell that person who’s kind of standing at the altar you know gettingmarried starting this new new uh position if you could tell that person one thing what would that beum I only get one um well you could anything you’d likeyeah um acknowledge not not even acknowledge it’s stronger than acknowledgeum uh own that you need God and you need others in your lifeum highly highly independent at that time and I was arrogantso you thought you could do it all on your own with a really business I really did yeah it was part of my own hubristhat uh because I didn’t ask for help and it yeah well I wonder how many howmany of the listeners how many people out there are um feeling that way too or feeling likethey’re the burden that the weight of everything that’s on their shoulders right now is just too much becausethey’re carrying too much and they’re not asking for that help they’re not finding that help elsewhere and I wonderhow many people you know and and I’m excited to see how many people you’re gonna help through that process becauseof how many people need it and see that what you’re doing in the world based on your experience and and and what you’vedone is going to change their lives so I’m I’m excited for that I’m excited forwhat you are going to show to people um how can people find you and and where can they find you where can they reachout um so I have a very limited social presence I do have a LinkedIn profile soit’s uh Matthew lesser is my LinkedIn profile uh my email is Matt atuniquelynormal.com so just uniquely normal all lower case uh two words butcombined uniquelynormal.com or my website iswww.uniquelynormal.com excellent well thank you so much Matt for being here this you have an amazing story you havean amazing Mission and uh and you have a an amazing book and I and if people wantto find that go to Amazon check it out uh look for his next book coming out sometime next year and certainly visituh visit his website email him and reach out to him um I appreciate you being here Matt anduntil next time thank you all for joining us we’ll see you soon hey everyone Thanks for tuning in to theflow over fear podcast if you’d like to learn more about getting into flow andlearn the foundations of flow I have a free video series on my website atwww.adamcliffordill.com called the foundations of flow feel free to go there and download it and start yourjourney to Rising above fear and achieving greater flow in your life if you like this episode and I’m guessingyou did if you stuck around for this long then please do me a favor and hit the Subscribe button and you willreceive notifications when I have new interviews new Recaps and new trainings that pop up on YouTube thanks again forjoining us foreign [Music]